Orientation Police

This comic is part of the Anything That Loves anthology from Northwest Press, along with work from about 30 other excellent cartoonists.

I’m just talking about my own experiences here – if you want to read some cool comics by trans men, some of the ones I read are:

Note: Comment section is now closed.  I think 135 comments is plenty.

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138 Responses to Orientation Police

  1. Aaron says:

    Brilliant and awesome. That is all. :)

  2. Miguel says:

    Brilliant. Thanks for this. What IS with people’s preoccupation with other peoples’ junk?

  3. Pingback: Strangest Wednesdays: Do Not Pass Go | Starfish Cosmology

  4. Cathy says:

    LOVE THIS COMIC

  5. SouthernGent says:

    nice comic. Only complaint not all guys that change gender are short. That’s a stereotype

    • admin says:

      Hi, SouthernGent!
      I don’t think the comic implies that ALL trans guys are short – just all of the ones I’ve dated (because that’s true, and because apparently I have a thing for short guys). Hope you liked the comic aside from that!

      • SouthernGent says:

        I saw this comic on r/gaybros and was actually surprised by the positive response it got on the website considering most don’t like when any person who is FTM talks about anything doing with trans issues on the site. I think I misinterpreted the comic when I read it the first two times. I viewed it as you saying you liked to date short guys meaning that they were for sure FTM since they were short. I now realize you just have a thing for any type of short guys. Please accept my apology for being a dick : ).

    • Lexi Marie says:

      I don’t know about you, but none of the trans men i know are over 5’11″ and i’m 6’1″ so to me they are all short :P (that’s 6’4 n my heals :P )

  6. Dane says:

    Yay! So relevant to my life; I’m a queer woman and my girlfriend is trans. It’s amazing how many people just do.not.get.it.

  7. Newton says:

    This is so full of awesome!!! :)

  8. Avery says:

    Fantabulous, political, and funny!

  9. Thanks for writing this – it is almost exactly my story as well. In addition, I feel that the transmen I’ve been with have a much more evolved sense of political engagement. I’m grateful to them for that.

  10. Great comic. I had no idea that you did this kind of work. I remember years ago when we went to see Pansy Division.

  11. Ry says:

    I am a straight guy…I have several gay friends…Some are transgender…Some are men…Some are women…There are a lot of things that I don’t understand…I don’t have to understand…They are people…They are my friends…Unless I am attracted to them, and they me, there is no reason for me to worry about what happens in their bedrooms.

    • RokrChikr says:

      Good to see more acceptance

    • Sue says:

      I’m a straight woman and I feel the same way. When I had a friend announce she was transgender at 50 years old, I did have some questions and she graciously answered them. I loved this cartoon. Education is really helpful sometimes, not because your personal sex life is our business but because knowledge and acceptance go hand in hand.

      • Megan says:

        Sue,
        you’re so right! I think it’s clear that you care enough to try to gain understanding! I think as a cis-gender person and an ally to people of all genders and sexualities it’s my responsibility to be knowledgeable in order to help out those of my friends who might not get it or just don’t know. People fear what they don’t know, but that’s why we gotta teach em ;D

  12. Thank you so much for this being a recently out trans man this has given me a new view on this because i am pansexual and not many people get that if you identify as male its really nice when people actually see that as you when people call me “sir” in public i just get really happy like thank you for noticing my masculinity.

  13. CJ says:

    hi i’m a trans man who read this and this is just the greatest thing ever to me because literally every gay guy i’ve come across has been like ‘ehh you’re cute but you don’t have a dick soooo’ and it’s just a nice reminder every once in a while that you’re not ALL that shallow

    • Nate says:

      I’m a closeted transdude, and that is one of my greatest fears, post coming out. I’m bi, so dating women and men is both kind of great, but being dismissed because I wasn’t given the right body kind of sucks :/

      • Bastian says:

        Hi there! I’m a transgent as well, and I had much the same attitude as you, for a good long time. I thought for sure that I’d be rejected forever, and that no cisgendered gay man would ever take interest in me, EVER.

        That is, until I met the man who would eventually become my husband.

        Yep. Married. To a guy who has never questioned my place as the dude by his side (and in his bed). People like that do exist, and it’s a wonderful thing when you stumble across them. Keep the faith, man.

  14. Katie Anne Holton says:

    This is beautiful. I wish I could draw. I’d do the same cartoon for queer women who date trans women like me.

  15. Sophia says:

    Trans woman here, thanking you for dispelling some myths and giving us some visibility. Hugs from Berlin!

  16. Butterfly says:

    Thank you! I needed that

  17. Ben says:

    Fantastic work. You really hit the nail on the head. :)

  18. P Tron says:

    As a gay man who also draws comics and has been in a relationship with a trans man for 11 years, I really appreciate this. Thanks for drawing on this topic. I’ve always been afraid to because I know everyone will judge my identity just as you’ve demonstrated above. This really resonates with me. Thank you.

    • admin says:

      Hi P Tron,
      Well, I’ll note that not everyone is Judgey McJudgerson about it – in fact, the majority of my friends have been totally cool, so the exceptions really stand out. If you ever decide to draw a comic about it, please send me a link!

  19. R says:

    This is a great comic and it really breaks some things down. However, there is one aspect of it that left me confused. Do the trans men you date identify as gay men? This may be an assumption, but I thought that trans men identified as heterosexual men and were attracted to women?

    • admin says:

      Hi, R.
      Glad you like the comic! But yeah, that assumption is incorrect. Some trans men are straight, some are gay, and some are bi- or pan- or a- sexual. The guys I’ve been with have mostly identified as gay.

    • A Trans Person says:

      That is a misconception; sexuality and gender are separate. Therefore, one can be trans and straight, or trans and gay, or trans and bisexual, etc. etc….

      If a cisgender man can be straight or gay, why can’t a transman be either? And to those of you who say: “Well, if you’re born in a female body and like men, why don’t you just stay female since it’s easier???” that’s extremely heteronormative. For instance, assume that you are a straight male—if everyone called you “she” and “ma’am” and thought you were a lesbian, it’d still feel wrong, even if they were correct in the assumption that you liked women.

    • Marc says:

      It seems like you’re confusing gender and sexuality, R. Trans men can be any sexuality, regardless of transition status, because a person’s gender and who they’re sexually attracted to don’t have anything to do with each other. For instance, I’m a gay trans man, but I have friends who are straight trans men, asexual trans men, bisexual trans men, pansexual trans men, and everything else! I hope that clears that up for you.

    • Janus says:

      Gender identity and sexual preferation are two different things. For what reason should there be hetereosexual, but not homo- (or bi-, a-, pan-, whatever-) sexual transmen? It’s all the same as with cis-(=non-trans-)gendered people.

    • whitr says:

      Thanks for the positive response. I’m a transman and I identify as an opportunivore. I like lots of flavors of human. It’s all about chemistry for me.

  20. AmyJhnsn says:

    This is so great!! Not only is the artwork super expressive — love your style! um, and your fashion sense — but the dialogue etc is wonderful, too. (I’m sure there’s better terminology for what I’m trying to express. I’m a 43 year old woman who is only currently starting to acknowledge that I might be more into graphic novels than I originally believed.) Love it.

  21. SoF says:

    I’m a gay trans guy and my libido has the exact same criteria as yours, even with guys who have major passing before starting on T. I’m glad I’m not the only one with supernatural T sensing abilities or something :D

  22. Sean-Michael says:

    Yay so cute and sadly I have heard all these comments. It is a bit challenging for me that people assume so much. Like that all trans men are short, beardless, flannel wearing with vaginas which I am none of….. but hey it’s awesome you get the guys you date are men and that you found your way around a vagina. Personally I wish I could find a guy who likes me for me, like that.

  23. Matt says:

    I am a trans guy with a cis male partner. I loved everything about this comic, but what struck me the most was the panel with the point that most of dating involves other body parts. Thank you for this.

  24. Wonderful story! Really speaks from the heart.
    Can’t wait for the movie! :-)

  25. Saw this on a random Tumblr. This is awesome. If only they’d let the Baroonist strips be this epic.

    …but what are you gonna do when Gattica happens and everything is done by genome measuring and then we are just an X or a Y with a number stamped on it? …If it involves explosions, let me know because I’d be so in on that.

  26. Andrew says:

    I’m a gay trans guy myself, and recently a cisgender gay man went OFF on me about posting an op ed about gay men dating trans men on my Facebook wall. He was apparently super offended that I feel people who aren’t “wired to like female genitalia” should be forced to want to have sex with them, just because they identified as male. (That really wasn’t what I or the op ed was saying at all, but that’s how he took it.) He essentially told me no “real” gay man would be interested in a transman’s body. I would’ve had better luck remaining a straight female if I was interested in men.

    So, thanks for posting this. I know some gay men hold the view this guy expressed to me on Facebook, but it’s good to know not all do. I can appreciate the concern with having one’s sexual orientation and identity questioned as a result of the partner you choose to date, but I refuse to compromise my own identity just because certain men aren’t interested in bodies like mine (I also get frustrated when who I am as a person is consistently broken down into my body parts instead of my accomplishments, personality, etc.).

    Simply put, this comic spoke to me and was amazing. Thanks again.

    • Bastian says:

      No “real” gay man would be interested in a transman’s body?

      That guy should talk to my husband, who I’m pretty sure is not imaginary.

    • Lexicon says:

      The whole, “why did you not stay a straight woman” is hillarious to me. I am not attracted to straight men, so that would not work out for me at all.

  27. Roman says:

    This is great!!!

  28. Kim says:

    Reading this was fantastic! I’m dating a trans* guy and I’m a straight cis gal and many of my friends have put me under the same scrutiny for my boyfriend not having “a proper dick” okay… Nice to know i’m not the only one out there!

  29. admin says:

    Thanks for the messages, everyone! I was kind of nervous about posting this comic, because it’s a personal topic. But it’s been really great to hear from people who can relate to it, or who appreciate me talking about it. I’m glad you like it!

    Also, the comic has blown up on tumblr (34,000 notes as of a few minutes ago), and I’m a little overwhelmed by the attention! So I’m sorry if it takes me a while to fetch your comments out of the moderation queue.

    (I’m keeping a tight rein on the comments, because there’s a tiny amount of bullshit coming in that you don’t need to deal with. Comments that deny trans men are men? Yeah, none of that on my site.)

  30. Thanks says:

    Thanks for this. What I most appreciate is your tone — not furious or disgusted or hurt but matter-of-fact. I’m a hetero cis woman and I want to be sensitive and say the right things, and NOT say the wrong ones, but it’s hard to know what’s appropriate. With the fluidity of gender and sexuality, it’s nice to be told what it’s like to be someone other than myself without being scolded. Excellent cartoon.

  31. stinger839 says:

    Heya Bill, Maybe it’s the men of trans* experience you’ve dated and negative comments from gay men you’ve faced that have influenced this. But wondering why you’re implying that transmen do not have penises besides a prosthetic. They may be small penises, but the anatomical differences between a clitoris and penis are more exagerrated than drunk claims of girth and length among straight guys. Your penis aka the greatest damn thing in the world according to almost everybody is subjectively considered a deformed clitoris.

    Otherwise, cute comic. I haven’t heard the term gold-star gay since the turn of this century.

  32. Bi girl from Iowa says:

    I wish someone had published something similar to this in the late 90s. I had to explain this to my family and friends when I started dating my future wife. We had to answer such questions as “Why didn’t you just get married at the county courthouse before she changed the gender on her driver’s license?” It would have felt like she was lying to do that.

  33. Charlie says:

    I’ve recently found out my boyfriend is trans and now describe myself as bisexual to people. I love this comic, though I’m coming at it from a slightly different angle.

    • Heath says:

      If your boyfriend is a transman you’re not bisexual. You’re gay.

      If your boyfriend is a transwoman, she’s your girlfriend.

      • admin says:

        1. Heath, we don’t know what gender Charlie is.
        2. The comment thread on a comic labeled “Orientation Police” is NOT the place to tell someone what their orientation is. Chill.

      • Ryan says:

        Charlie was dating someone they perceived as a different gender at the time. Now said person comes out as trans thus making them the opposite gender (if binary) and Charlie is still with them. Bisexual doesn’t sound like a stretch to me.

        Or do you not understand what bisexual means?

        A bi guy dating a woman is still bisexual. A bi guy dating a guy is still bisexual.

      • Bazz says:

        Bisexuals date men, you know. WTH?

  34. Heath says:

    I’m a trans dude and I gotta say, this comic made me pretty annoyed.

    First of all, you’re making a distinction between guys who have started T and haven’t, as if you think you have some kind of supernatural “radar” to be able to tell the hormones going on in someone’s body. Just as you think it’s not okay for a stranger to be interested in a trans guy’s “junk”, what makes you think it’s okay for you to comment on or have feelings about the chemicals in a stranger’s bodies? You think you’re being so kind and such a great trans ally for letting us poor little (short) trans men be considered “real men” even pre-T, but you have to let us all know that we’re not real enough men pre-T that you’d be interested in us. That is so disgusting to me, I can’t put it into words.

    Also never ever ever use the word “butch” to describe a trans man. Never. Ever. “Butch” is a word used to describe women (specifically, lesbian women). I don’t want a word used to describe women ever applied to me.

    The idea of “passing” is an extremely touchy one. Passing for a trans guy is something that, for me (and other trans guys I know) causes a ton of anxiety, worry, stress, and fear. We have to worry about passing as male every minute of every day in public. If someone even starts to think maybe we’re “actually a woman” or that something isn’t quite right, we’re literally putting our life on the line, or at the very least lining ourselves up for serious harassment. (It’s even worse when you’re a gay trans guy.) We have to analyze every movement we make and every tone of voice we use and every piece of clothing we wear and how we wear it and a million other things I won’t get into. The fact that you’re making your boyfriend’s passing into your ridiculous compulsion to never ever ever be seen as “straight” is selfish and awful. Way to make that all about you.

    It’s really difficult being a gay trans man – it’s similar to your problem, but instead of worrying about someone possibly seeing me as straight, the horror!, we have to worry about being denied the ability to transition by some doctors, or being questioned by friends or family because “you’re interested in guys? But then you could have just stayed a woman! It would have been so much easier!”, at every turn. I’ve known more than one trans guy whose had to hide his sexual orientation from doctors and psychiatrists to make sure he can still get his papers, hormones, or surgery.

    I guess it’s nice to see something about trans guys and a little education getting spread around, even if it’s seriously misguided in places, but I don’t see why a cis guy had to do it. Would you be annoyed if a straight guy made a comic about a struggle gay guys face, got things wrong, made generalizations, and was selfish? Probably not.

    • admin says:

      I’m a trans dude and I gotta say, this comic made me pretty annoyed.

      Hi Heath,
      This comment came in at 1:30am, and I’m swamped with my day job right now, but I don’t want to ignore it.

      >First of all, you’re making a distinction between guys who have started T and haven’t, as if you think you have some kind of supernatural “radar” to be able to tell the hormones going on in someone’s body.

      That’s… not what I was trying to say there. Those 2 panels are an actual thing that actually happened. I found myself thinking “hubba-hubba” towards a guy I hadn’t really noticed before, and then discovered that he’d gone on T shortly before. Since that was the only thing that had really changed, I thought it was worth noting, but I meant it in a “hey, I like what I like” way, not as “this is my sole criterion.”

      >”Butch” is a word used to describe women (specifically, lesbian women).

      Gay men use “butch” and “femme” to describe themselves all the time.

      >The fact that you’re making your boyfriend’s passing into your ridiculous >compulsion to never ever ever be seen as “straight” is selfish and awful. Way to make that all about you.

      In that panel, the “Ugh, I hope no one thinks we’re a straight couple” thought balloon has bubbles going to BOTH our heads. Because he later told me that he’d been thinking that, and I said “heh – me too!”

      But ultimately, yes, the comic is about me. Because it’s my story. The problems that trans men (and trans women) face are much more serious than my petty annoyance about sometimes being considered straight. But I don’t have the right to speak on behalf of trans people. So I tried to keep this comic tightly focused on my own experience.

      >I guess it’s nice to see something about trans guys and a little education getting spread around, even if it’s seriously misguided in places, but I don’t see why a cis guy had to do it.

      I can see that it would be annoying to have this story keep coming up on your dash. But it’s not a zero-sum game – my drawing this comic isn’t preventing trans people from talking about their own experiences. THere are plenty of trans men drawing comics about their experience: I’ll point to http://whatsnormalanyway.net/ (having a kickstarter right now! support it!), http://www.roostertailscomic.com/ (also in the “Anything That Loves” anthology), http://copper-rose.tumblr.com/, and like, 100 others I can’t think of off the top of my head.

      I am sorry that I annoyed you with this comic, though. There are some things I wish I’d clarified more, but I chose not to because I didn’t want to get derailed. But this comic is much smaller than what I think you’re looking for – it’s just my story about being annoyed by the orientation cops – it’s not a definitive statement about life for trans people.

      • A Kapitan says:

        It is so important for a cis, gay man to be doing exactly what you are doing here, Bill. Heath doesn’t understand why a cis guy had to do it? Because cis gay men will listen to a cis gay man in a way that they will never listen to trans gay men and thousands of other trans folk. You creating this comic means you’re taking some of the heat that trans folk face every single day from cis gay men on Manhunt, Grindr, etc. And that wasn’t even necessarily your intention–your intention was to tell Your story about being annoyed by the orientation cops, and the world needs to hear your story just as badly as the world needs to hear stories from gay/queer/pan/bi trans men.

        This comic is amazing, and you are amazing. I really needed this beauty and awesomeness today. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

      • s says:

        Wow that was a great and extremely respectful reply to someone who needs to chill out a little. “Way to make it all about you” made me laugh because erm yes, that was the whole point – it was about the perspective of the cisgendered gay guy! (way to make it all about you, Heath). I thought you reflected real life very well. And you know what, if a gay guy decided he fancied me (an FTM guy) more AFTER I had hormones and got rid of my massive breasts then that’s ok! I mean we all have body types that we like or prefer or are interested in. Im presuming that to placate such criticisms about this, youd have to have the main character in every comic being attracted to absolutely every other character in order not to exclude anyone!
        And Heath don’t get me wrong, I do understand that it is difficult to transition, and that a gay man being taken for straight is not nearly as big as some of the stuff we have to deal with – but 1) the comic wasn’t suggesting it was a bigger deal and 2) so what, if it is an issue that matters to guys in this situation then, it matters. You don’t have to be competitive about how many different oppressions we all have, it is totally unhelpful! My boyfriend and I are supportive of each other – which means that I know we (queer/minority people) are all in this together, it is not a battle about who has it hardest! Whilst queer folk all around the world are still oppressed in the most basic of ways then it seems churlish to be criticising someone who discussing this issue this with an intention of respect and celebration.

      • Sera McCauley says:

        I just want to tell you how much love I have for you and your ability to handle people who come to your blog with concerns or rants.

        I find this absolutely gorgeous and necessary and I’m a total lesbo :P

        The fact that a cis person is exploring and is in tune with trans issues absolutely makes a happy kitty here. It’s always good to see people fighting in our corner.

        Every day I see people using hashtags like #fuckcispeople and things like that. Why the fuck would you do that? Sadly, with the fact that transness is pathologized and beaten into a psychiatric background to get any form of support or, forgive me, corrective measures like HRT into place, it’s hard to get people to pull their heads out of their asses long enough to fucking understand we are men, or women. Our parts are irrelevant, we live and love the same.

        So when someone like you chooses to care enough to make a comic like this that makes sense…well…bloody well thank you! <3 Um. Yeah. I probably shouldn't write comments at 5:45 in the morning but there you have it

      • “But it’s not a zero-sum game – my drawing this comic isn’t preventing trans people from talking about their own experiences.”

        Right, so I am not sure how clearly I said this in my longer comment: in future it would be better to link these sites from the beginning, with an awareness of how your story might get more exposure than theirs and how you could boost their signals too. This reply seems like you may be avoiding responsibility for that kind of thinking.

        • admin says:

          Well, I’ll note that this is the first time anything I’ve drawn has gotten more than 100 viewers (for all of July, this website got 241 visitors). I’m pretty sure that everyone linked above has a larger regular audience than I do.

          But I guess that’s not true any more, since in the last two weeks, this site has gotten over 60,000 visitors. I’ve been sending emails to people who want to use this comic for outreach or education, urging them to use material written by actual trans people instead. I should make a more widely accessible post about that.

          I generally trust readers to know that when I talk about my experiences, I’m not making a blanket statement about how the world works – I’m just describing the bit in front of me. An earlier draft of this comic contained a few more disclaimers and “not everyone does X…” statements, but beta readers urged me to cut them because it was so obviously a personal comic about my individual experience. Some of that nuance gets lost when it escaped onto tumblr, though, and isn’t just on a site labelled “The Amazing Adventures of Bill.” If I do more comics in this vein, I may modify that approach.

    • Jessica says:

      I’m a transwoman, and I for one really loved this comic and I take offense at a lot of things you said because you’re actually making a ton of assumptions it really just sounds like you’re so used to fighting that you’re not able to see anything but bad things. For example you say “we’re not real enough men pre-T” he never said anything about you being real enough men pre-T although there are definite differences between FtMs pre-T and post-T one of the most obvious ones is that their voice would drop and they would develop more muscle faster which he may or may not be attracted too.

      Now I don’t want to point out everything about your post which annoyed me or I’d be quoting all day there was just one thing that annoyed me so much that I had to make this post.

      “we have to worry about being denied the ability to transition by some doctors”

      Now you say this as a problem with being known as a gay FtM and I want to point a few things which are wrong with this.

      1) If a doctor refuses to treat a patient based upon sexuality when it is for the issues of being transgendered this is a crime and shouldn’t be hidden away but instead reported I personally reported 2 of my doctors and got them in a hell of a lot of trouble from higher ups for mistreatment.

      2) I have a friend and a very friendly relationship with my therapists and have talked in length with all those involved about sexuality and trans sexuality. Funnily enough if you were to tell them that you were an FtM who was into guys the ones I spoke to would be more likely to be convinced you were actually transgendered. This is because there are a few people out there who misgender themselves at a point and attempt to transition because they believe they should be the opposite gender if they like the gender they were born as. I have met several people who misidentified as transsexual because they couldn’t accept they were gay. While this isn’t always the case therapists are actually much more likely to consider you transgendered if you define as gay transgendered not because it’s common but because those who define as both gay and transgendered are actually more likely to not have misgendered themselves trying to avoid being gay.

      3) Don’t ever hide/lie to your therapists. If you hide information from your doctors/therapists you are 100% going to find your hormones and surgery off the table if they ever discover that you were lying. Lying to someone who is basically in charge of if you get hormones and surgery is stupid as hell especially where those who chose to lie normally have something to hide. For example I knew someone who identified as MtF when they were in fact just a gay guy. I’m pretty certain they knew they were just a gay guy but they hid a lot of information from their therapists. They managed to get onto hormones and eventually get surgery and yet regretted it at a later date. All the information they chose to hide from the therapists would of shown the therapists that they were not in fact transgendered and would of saved them lots of money and a lot of other issues caused by going though with the transition. As such if they find out you are lying to them they probably wont ever be willing to issue you hormones because they wont know if you are ever telling them the truth.

      4) Gender identity and sexuality aren’t linked and everyone who studies this field knows that they aren’t linked. In fact anyone who desires to know anything about transsexuals will spend a decent enough time researching the science of it. (I personally wouldn’t suggest going to the trans community since they can be harsh to people who don’t know anything and are looking to learn for example you yelling at the person who made this comic and making about 10000 assumptions doing it) Anyone who bothers to research the science of it or actually thinks about it with any shred of logic should see that being a guy doesn’t mean you want pussy and those who are FtM wouldn’t all want pussy too. If they can’t see this then they are an idiot and you shouldn’t waste much time on them.

      p.s you say being questioned by friends and family. Well lets be honest they are your friends and family they should want to know more about who you are. However if they are judging you or saying that you’re not trans because of it then they are not your friends or family because friends don’t judge and true family loves unconditionally and doesn’t try to force you to be someone you’re not.

      • admin says:

        Hi Jessica,

        I’m glad you like the comic, and I appreciate the defense.
        However, I want to note that your experience with the medical establishment is likely to be very different from Heath’s. And (since you’ve got a UK email address) in most US states, discrimination based on sexual orientation is not a crime, so there would be no consequences for reporting it.

  35. I can’t say anything that hasn’t already been said, so forgive the repetitiveness of this comment. I just wanted the artist to know, yet another person has been touched by his work. I’m a bisexual trans man, and all though I am happily in a relationship with a lovely girl, it’s still amazing to know that I had the option of being with another gay man. I never thought a gay man would be interested in a trans man for all of the reasons you have mentioned above. Now I see that I was wrong in that assumption. There are wonderful men like you, just as there are lovely women, who really don’t care about what we’ve got between the legs.

    Thank you for your work that covers so much in such a unique way, Bill.

  36. Anonymous says:

    Why bother putting a label on it? Also, why care what other people think? “Fuck it.” Adopting the “fuck it” mindset overall is clearly unhealthy, but in moderation, it’s quite useful.

  37. Shnook says:

    This is a fantastic comic. Very relevant and well-produced. I hear it’s been floating round tumblr, and am now off to find and repost it.
    Also, I am very impressed by the level of sanity and awesomeness in the comments. Even those that don’t understand certain things are being polite in asking and learning in order to better themselves.
    Kudos to everyone!

  38. David says:

    My life. Only I was never squicked.

  39. Dave G says:

    This is a brilliant presentation a highly charged conversation. I am the faculty adviser for our school’s GSA, and teach an Evaded Issues course that discusses gender and sexuality in some detail. Bill, if you’re ever inclined to come up with a school-friendlier alternate ending, I’d love to bring this into my classroom!

  40. Kelly says:

    Thank you, Bill. This validates so many of us who don’t subscribe to the gender binary, either in how we present, or who we like, or both. And, I think you have done a great service in eloquently relaying your experience and educating in the process. I have shared this with friends, and hope that many, many people see and read it. Great job!

  41. Faith says:

    <3 This is awesome. Thank you for being brave enough to write/draw this and then for posting it, you have created something that is funny and educational for people.

  42. Chana says:

    This is a really important piece of work! I’ve been saying it for years — that gender and orientation are not things that come in labelled boxes — but your comic is such a sweet and brave way of putting it. Getting that is such an important thing, even for straight people who only go with other straight people, because being “straight” is, as it happens, kinda wavy. Once people can get past worrying about how to file people (which is a very time-consuming business!) they can worry about something more important, such as how to behave ethically toward them.

  43. Valerie from California says:

    Another trans woman here. Bill, I love you for doing this; it is sweet, makes me go awwwwwww, and it further dispels many of the myths and giving trans people some visibility; especially trans men ! Also, I love your artistic style and how you framed the entire story and its progression. Finally, you get my internet hugs for the day; it took some courage to put something so personal about yourself and your boyfriend out there like this. ~hugs~

    • admin says:

      Yes, I’m aware that some people are annoyed with this comic. But I’m not going to wander onto someone else’s site to defend myself (other commenters, you don’t need to do that either).

      • nonviolentrage says:

        Speaking as another cis person who has had multiple partners who are trans*, I appreciate this comic but I also have mixed feelings. We all know that cis voices will be heard more than trans* voices even when it’s about cissexism, and we can’t prevent that because the world is fucked up. In fact I have recently been reminded that maybe more of us should be speaking up as you are. But, I figure that means we should also be a lot more thoughtful and responsible for what we say, and really take criticism when something we say hurts someone. And always, explicitly, push cis readers to listen to actual trans people as well and to think about what your partners must be going through; you can’t just assume they will think about the difference between hearing your story and being cis-centric in general.

        So for example, you did not point out that trans* men have way more shit to deal with, and you did not acknowledge that if trans* men are butch it is often because the gender police will come after them worse otherwise.

        Particularly when you talked about “pre-T” and “post-T” trans men, it wasn’t clear you were talking about one person, so firstly it never mentions that this is anything other than just fine, and it comes across like an assumption that all trans men will do testosterone eventually, and that they’re sexier to everyone if they do. That’s a really harmful assumption and this comic propagates it. I say this also because you seem to know your cis gay men audience, so you can judge how much they might react like “oh, if he’s on T then it’s okay, I’m still gay” or whatever which just pushes the problem into a new way of policing.

        All that said, I wouldn’t have said anything in the first place if I didn’t see how carefully you are engaging comments. This is all in the spirit of trying to do more work against cissexism.

  44. April says:

    I suppose I never really thought much about the reverse of my relationship.
    It always makes me sad how marginalized transmen are anyway, but this type of shaming as a problem has only just entered my awareness. I must admit I’m ashamed of how ignorant of transmen specific issues I am.

  45. Richard says:

    So full of Win.

  46. Fox of Fire says:

    I really like how this comic explores two preconceptions that I believe are far too rampant: 1) that sex and gender necessarily go hand-in-hand and 2) that there are no shades of grey between them. We live in a world now where there are people of a broad range of gender identities and even the line between man and woman is quite blurred.

    The impression I got from your comic is that you’re interested heavily in the male gender and slightly in the male sex. Unfortunately, I think it’s a bit too soon to expect everyone to be able think of it in that way, so take it easy on us straight folk. I think a lot of people just think the game of love is a lot easier with clear labels.

  47. Ubb' says:

    Damn’ ! I didn’t had a clue that being gay was so complicated…

    • J says:

      It’s really not. At all.

      Gay man = man who likes men.
      Trans man = man.

      Literally, this comic can be broken down like this.

  48. Sam Orchard says:

    Ha, cool! :D As a queer transman it’s always nice to know that cis gay guys would still see me as a dude :D

  49. tinyrhino says:

    I say pish to labels. I’d even go so far as to say pish to that gold star – who cares? The orientation police? Fine, let ‘em care. People certainly can care about the things they feel they should care about, kinda just like people should date the people they care about.

    Is that gold star very important to you? Isn’t it just a label, too? I gotta confess, I don’t think I understand it…? (But then, I don’t care who sleeps with who so long as they actually care about *each other*.) I don’t really consider myself much of any label, but I have always been confident in my identity (which has very little to do with sexual acts or organs), I have enjoyed being attracted to the very rare, few people I have been attracted to, and I am content with the one person on this planet that I have ever had sex with. (Bonus prize for me: he’s the one person I’ve ever wanted to have sex with, and he wanted to with me, too!) So perhaps I am not even qualified to comment on this… But back when I didn’t date anyone (because I hadn’t met anyone worth dating) I did get pressure from friends to apply a label to myself – they wanted to know, basically, who I *wanted* to hump, even if I wasn’t actually humping anyone. There was a big discussion, then, on if you could call yourself “gay” or “bi” or “straight” if you haven’t actually had SEX with *anyone* yet. (Yup, your typical pile of virgins yapping about sex.) We pretty much came to the conclusion, it was WHO you were attracted to – and some of us didn’t care a fig(leaf) for genitalia – we rather liked brains, and various details both physical and mental. A few of us cared greatly about centrally located bits of anatomy, but that was the minority (my gang may not be typical of all gangs. Who knows? Who really cares? Kinsey, maybe…)

    Er, I might be straying a bit from topic… Hey, maybe you should get a different star – a PLATINUM star, or something!

    (Oh dear, I just had a thought – what if platinum’s already been assigned? For, say, having sex with two people: one is older than you, one is younger, one’s taller than you, one’s shorter, one’s male, one’s female, one who likes jazz and one who hates jazz, all the while earning your mile high club membership and something to do with whip cream and cherries (ICK.) Well, if platinum’s already assigned, pick a different colour or precious metal… I really have no clue how this works…)

    Sorry to ramble. I enjoyed the comic. Maybe I really just want to say “cheers!”

    • admin says:

      The gold star is not a thing that anyone actually takes seriously. I mean, it’s what the teacher gave out in
      elementary school if you were a good boy. I’m a grown-up now – who cares?
      I used it here because I thought it made a cute visual metaphor for my “credentials” as a gay man. The “Noooo! It’s mine!” was intended to be humorously hyperbolic.

      • tinyrhino says:

        I’m glad it’s not a serious thing. Maybe the orientation police DO care, and as I said, let’em. *On their own time.* My platinum star was to be even more hyperbolic… (er, is that a word? hyperbolish? hyperboley?) …Hmm, can I have a plaid star? I wonder what a plaid star would mean? ;-)

        (It would be a little funny if Kinsey had given out little sticker stars to his interviewees…)

        Anyhoo, as I should have simply put in the very first place: Cheers!

  50. Alex says:

    Thank you.

  51. Cory says:

    Thank you so much for this! Part of my work is answering questions about sexuality, and I was literally responding to someone who was asking a question just along these lines. I have a long earnest response, but in addition to that I can now share this comic which does so much, and so entertainingly! I look forward to checking out more of your work and hope you continue exploring these themes.

  52. rhopper says:

    This is so sweet! I’m also a gay man dating a trans guy. We’ve been together for almost a year–the longest either of us has ever been with anyone and we’re ridiculously happy and ridiculously cute together! :)

  53. SouthernGent says:

    I didn’t know that gay men also used the term gold star. I previously only heard it on the L word.

  54. friday jones says:

    Well supplied indeed. :)

  55. Melissa says:

    As a person who wants to be caring and open and treat others well, and as a parent who wants to raise unbigoted caring kids who are free to be themselves, thank you for this. I do not always understand how things work (a great deal of education in the comments here for me, appreciate it) and as has been mentioned, I do not need to understand. Wishing you well and keep drawing and writing and loving and living.

  56. Pamela says:

    Hi, there, Bill :) I’ve just came across your blog and I must say it was quite revealing. I’m a would-be translator native Spanish speaker and I was wondering if I might get permission to translate part of your work and upload it to tumblr. No money-gaining involved, my solely aim is to inform readers, spread the word and hopefully transition into a more tolerant world. I’m a gay cisgender lesbian woman and lately I’m getting interested in inphographics and comics as a mean of educating people (yeah, not only straight people). Regards!

  57. Kimberly says:

    It seems that the author is still concerned about what people label him. I hope he can just give it up, date who he wants and not worried about ‘gold stars’.

  58. Brigham says:

    This is absolutely brilliant, my first discovery of you as an artist (thanks, Tumblr! You’re not just dirty pics, after all!). I also liked your thoughtful responses to the comments. We more respectful and funny expressions of the individual experience of practicing self-determination in our lives. It makes the world a better place.

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  61. O.H. says:

    Something just seemed a little off about this comic to me. And I think it was the “three of my last four relationships have been with transmen” line. I guess I would have found the argument more believeable coming from the point of view of someone who was gay, fell in love with a transman, and was able to look past the genetalia difference to spend the rest of his life with that person. But if you date a lot of transmen then I think it undermines the message that they are men just like anyone else. It suggests you’re seeking them out because they are DIFFERENT somehow, in a way that is attractive to you.

    I’m a straight man. 5/6 of the women I’ve dated seriously or semi-seriously have large rear ends. 4/6 of them have a D-cup or bigger. So I’m not going to sit here and tell you I’m a leg man.

    • admin says:

      This is an example of what I’m talking about in the comic. One trans guy is acceptable, but if I’ve dated 3, I’ve got to call myself something else? Really?
      I’m not going to justify the numbers in my romantic history so that you’ll find my gay identity “believable.” There have been some trans guys; there have been some cis guys. Common factor: they’re all guys.

      • Tiessa says:

        Why do you have to call yourself anything? You’re clinging to what Kierkegaard complained about.

        I love how you start off a labeler and when you start to get labeled in a way you don’t like, you cling to your preferred label rather than giving it up altogether and not caring. You can’t just be a guy who likes people who look like guys, you *have* to be labeled as gay. You’re getting too much of your self identity from a stereotype rather than just being Yourself. Part of our entire community’s problem is exclusion and labeling, “I was labeled and excluded so now I’m going to do the same thing and be that label and hold myself apart and no one can join my label unless I approve.” Gold star gay… Pfft. You sound like a child seeking approval from a teacher rather than working to educate and comfort those who are conflicted and trying to find their way. I’d prefer to be a gold star person myself.

        The fact that you don’t like being labeled by someone else with something you don’t like should indicate the uselessness of labels and the futility of caring about others opinions. If its your friends that are hassling you, they aren’t friends.

        Do what you want, date whom you want, go where you want, and ignore people trying to make you something you aren’t (that includes your own prejudices about yourself).

        Also, could it be the magnitude of the internal struggle and societal issues you overcame making you think the label is worth keeping? It’s hard to give up something you worked so hard to earn. You’d give up a car or house or relationship that had outlived its usefulness, but this relationship with your label doesn’t sound like its making your life happier.

  62. Bazz says:

    As a trans guy, I think it’s great that you like to date trans guys. So do I.

    I think it is *not* great that you threw the v-word out there like it is completely acceptable. Despite some porno titles you may have heard of or seen, it is not acceptable everyday language.

    A handful of guys might be perfectly fine with this. But a lot of us do not have that part, or do not use that part, and many of us who do would punch someone in the face for calling it that. And there is no mention of our dicks at all. If you want to inform the CIS public about the joys of sex with a trans guy, I think it is pretty remiss to leave that out and focus on something that not all of us even possess.

    It’s also uncomfortable to think about CIS people having the kind of conversation depicted at the water cooler or whatever. Our lovers do not need to explain our bodies to their friends or coworkers. And we don’t need to explain our bodies to random people either. It’s an important point that people need to be sensitive about our bodies and not label them or inquire inappropriately.

    This would be equally abrasive if it was about dating trans women and it went on and on about penises. It’s just not right for obvious reasons.

    • admin says:

      >If you want to inform the CIS public about the joys of sex with a trans guy, I think it is pretty remiss to leave that out

      If I ever do draw a comic about the joy of sex with trans guys (and I’ve considered it), it would be very different from this one, and that’s a topic that would come up. Here, I used a deliberately clinical term for its alienating effect – it’s in the mouth of an Orientation Cop and a gynophobic dude, or used (by me) to try to shut down an inappropriate conversation. That effect obviously didn’t work for you, which: fair enough.

      For the rest: these conversations are based on real ones that happened in particular contexts, but they’re composites and are exaggerated slightly for dramatic/comedic effect. They’re not intended as a model of how cis people should behave. Other commenters: Bazz is right – this isn’t watercooler discussion.

  63. Kendra says:

    Can I just start off and say bravo for educating people, it might not seem like it at the get go but by the end of the comic yet you peer more into your own perspective it becomes clear. We don’t live in a society where these things are taught and we can only go off the simplistic knowledge of what we know but that is why we can’t get to upset of people who don’t understand it; especially those who have never been exposed to a transgender, they come with their own specifications on how their life works, relation and gender specifics.

    It gets frustrating because people don’t like learning something they’ve had since their Sex Ed. class in middle school, which was shoved down their throats in the first place.

    I’ll look more into your other works since the style simplicity is great and the tone in your comics isn’t hostile it has a good underlying ground floor. Also it’s colorful. Heck yes for color.

  64. There says:

    Hi. Great comic. As a cis straight female, I have a request to make of EVERYONE. Be who you want to be, love who you want to love. But, please, don’t expect me to figure out what is going on with you when I have just met you. You can complain that I have inadequate gaydar, straight-dar, trans-dar, etc., but if I just met you I just want to have a conversation, not a judgement, just like you. If you are a lesbian or a straight woman who has a somewhat butch hairstyle and clothing, please don’t get angry with me if I assume you are male. The same goes for a gay or straight guy who is femme, etc. If I am wrong, certainly correct me. Just a simple correction. No need to be offended. I really don’t care about your sex life. We are way too sex-obsessed in this society anyway.

  65. Sean says:

    That last panel was beautiful! You have any friends who like short transguys just as much? ;p

  66. Jacob says:

    As a rather newly transitioned transman, I have to say that this gives comic gives me hope. Maybe I’ll meet someone who doesn’t care that there’s ‘junk’ missing downstairs someday.

    Thank you.

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  68. eileen says:

    Please don’t take offense to any of my questions, because I’m just a straight CIS female trying to understand. Are you saying that testosterone itself makes someone appealing to you? Genitalia don’t matter? Emotional landscape doesn’t matter? I’ve wondered myself why as much as I’ve loved some of my female friends, I simply don’t enjoy them sexually, and wondered if I just need more testosterone in the room? My gay friends always tell me it’s about emotional connection, as in who you can love and who you can fall in love with. I’m so confused.

    • admin says:

      No, I’m not saying that.
      Sexual orientation is an actual thing. If you’re a straight woman, then – by definition – you’re attracted to men, and not to women. Don’t overthink it.

      • Anne Johnson says:

        I supposes there are people who “fall in love” with genitalia – on second thought they are probably falling in lust. Falling in love has to do with various attributes of the person you are attracted to, physical genitalia being for most people the least of these attributes. Think of it in terms of gender identity rather than genitalia. When you someone whose gender identity is male falls in love, they will usually be attracted to someone with a male gender identity (making them gay) or a female gender identity (making them straight). Vice versa for someone falling in love whose gender identity is female, and usually because we don’t want to leave out people who are non gendered or androgenous or two spirit (but those could start all kinds of other discussions).

        As for the testosterone I think I can speak with some authority on the subject because I am a male to female trans woman who, 2 years into her new marriage to another woman and 4 years after going on hormones, went off of hormones for six months to see if she could become fertile (as a male) so that my partner/spouse and I could have children that genetically belonged to both of us. This was not successful, but at the end of that six months my spouse Lisa was saying, “you know, I really miss you” (and I was saying that I missed myself). After six months of allowing my male hormones to return I was self centered, emotionally disconnected, quick to anger, more rational and less emotional (except for the anger). I was turning back into a guy! Testosterone is very powerful, and trans men have to learn to deal with the increasing feelings of power and control that come with it. I had to call out 3 recently transitioned transmen at a conference many years ago because they were loudly talking during a performance by a Gay Men’s Chorus. A year before, living as women, they would never have done this, a year later after learning to deal with the shifting emotions from hormones they would likely never have done this. On the other hand 2 months after my own starting hormones and a testosterone suppressant, it being October, I saw before me across the road a gloriously beautiful red orange maple tree, and started crying! Tear rolling down my face! So hormones again, have very powerful affects on our emotions. I had to learn to not cry at the drop of the hat, which was a bit of a challenge because I was a hallmark crier before I transitioned.

        In the end, all in all, as my good friend Emily says, “After a while you learn to just look for the light in the person’s eyes.”

  69. plunderpuss says:

    Yeah, pretty sure I Internet-love you. That’s all.

  70. D says:

    I love this comic. As a transman who has been dating a gay cisman for seven years (6 of them being pre hormones) this really spoke to me because so much of our time together was spent annoyed at just about every single one of these things. I cannot express how amazing it is to see something that I can relate to so well.

    And to all the other transpeople complaining: I don’t really care who talks about who’s issues. If a white person wants to talk about black people’s rights or a cis-straight person wants to talk about gay trans rights then I couldn’t care less as long as the message is getting out to more and more people. Also, complaining about how Bill chooses to discuss things with their partners is silly. Just because you as a trans feels a certain way doesn’t mean that all transpeople feel that way and you shouldn’t take it upon yourself to speak for the entire population of transpeople.

    Bill: Thank you again!

  71. Womandrogyne says:

    Thanks for your open, honest, and charming comic. It’s extraordinary the extent to which people want to know what other people “are” – whether it’s gender or sexuality or both.

    I’m a trans tomboy (who has had her fair share of absurd elitist crap from trans women who expect us all to be überheterofemme), I’m basically asexual but polysensual, and I’m attracted to androgyny more often than not. And I’ve been surprised (and then not surprised) to discover that if I like someone, their gender or anatomy is really irrelevant – I just like them, so I like whatever anatomy they turn out to have. It’s more and more often the case for me that I’m attracted towards someone long before I have any idea what gender they identify as, or what their anatomy is. And this is partly because as I’ve been transitioning, I’ve unlearned the habit of needing to know – or speculate – what someone’s “technical specs” are in order to know whether I like them or not. So it’s not remotely the first thing I want to know about someone.

    I dated a trans man for a while (back when I was still “passing” as a man), and the thing that first attracted me to him was his smile :) . Orientation is really overrated.

  72. Muser says:

    This is an incredible comic, and I’m glad it is getting the level of attention it is. Regardless of how much criticism or ignorant comments you get, I love to see so much discussion and awareness happening. And kudos for you for having such level-headed responses to us all.

  73. Agay T. Guy says:

    -why do you hate being taken for straight? whats so bad about being straight?

    -pls stop saying “transmen”. its “trans men”. trans is an adjective, and squishing
    an adjective into a noun makes it a different noun. thus, you are implying that
    trans men aren’t really men.

    -not all trans men are short, i know you weren’t trying to imply that but it still
    supports a stereotype. at least add a disclaimer?

    -really, why have you dated so many trans guys. sure, you might be innocent, but I
    hope you understand why I’m so suspicious. three of four. and your wording throughout makes
    it seem like none have had bottom surgery. forgive me for questioning your motives,
    but you seem to be a BIT of a chaser.

    -was that part about you finding post-t guys more attractive really necessary? like
    I’m not really sure what point you were trying to make? (not trying to tell you what you should or
    shouldn’t be attracted to btw, just confused.)

    -are you like, outing your boyfriends to random people? b/c outing people is not okay.

    -im not sure you really understand how much “some men have vaginae, get over it (or vice versa)” shit
    trans people have to put up with. sorry, but i cant get over it. thats kinda why im trans. i get you were
    trying to make a point, they all are. yes, some men might have vaginae, but we’d really
    rather not be reminded of that. (and look while there might be some trans people who are okay with their parts
    doesn’t mean that it’s okay to ignore the fact that most aren’t.)

    -uh, careful of stepping on toes with the “gynophobia” thing. its perfectly expected
    for someone whose sexuality only includes male things to not find female parts
    attractive. again, not everyone can just “get over it”

    -”but HE really liked it”. and the picture shows you apparently giving him oral? anyways, the context
    makes it seem like trans guys like getting eaten out. and hey, some might, but seeing as most people
    are really ill informed about these issues you’ve got to be careful about sending the wrong messages
    right? and thats what you’re doing. maybe you didn’t mean to, but you’re forgetting that most
    trans people cant stand their genitals. like, for me, any contact down there between my dick and bumhole
    makes me want to scream/cry/hit something, and going IN the thing gives me a panic attack.
    dealing with dysphoria in sexual situations is kind of a Big Deal for most trans people, and you
    completely glossed over that. im not really sure what kind of guys you’ve been dating, but has this really never
    come up? anyway, way to (not) represent.

    • admin says:

      why do you hate being taken for straight? whats so bad about being straight?

      When people assume I’m straight, it makes me feel like I’m lying to them. And it reminds me of being back in the closet, and makes me stress about when I’m going to have to come out to them.

      And when people insist that I’m straight, because my boyfriend is trans?
      Here’s an analogy:

      Me: Hi, I’m Bill.
      Jerk: Nice to meet you, William.
      Me: Er, actually, my name is Bill.
      Jerk: But that’s not your REAL name, is it? It says William on your birth certificate, right? So even if you “identify” as Bill, you’re actually William.
      Me: Dude, that’s not my name. Just call me Bill!
      Jerk: Woah, why are you so hung up on labels? You know who you are, why does it matter what people call you?

      For the rest: Without going into detail about my sex life (more than I have in the comic, I guess), I’ll just note that the comic represents my experiences with the guys that I have dated. I’m not saying anything about all trans guys, or most trans guys, or anyone other than me and those three dudes. That’s why the comic is part of the series “The Amazing Adventures of Bill” – because it’s my experiences. I’m not saying “this is how it works for all cis/trans couples,” just “this is how it has worked for me.”

      • Agay T. Guy says:

        Yeah, I get that the comic is supposed to be about the troubles of a cis gay guy dating trans guys, but unless you’re careful you’re gonna end up saying some problematic things. Imho, the issues that trans people face > whatever flak the people dating them might get. Obviously transphobia in the gay community is a problem, and it’s gotta suck to have to deal with that, but to see a comic talking about that yet ignoring some pretty important things (which i pointed out in my comment) is kinda irritating.

    • Eric says:

      “you’re forgetting that most trans people cant stand their genitals. [...] (and look while there might be some trans people who are okay with their parts doesn’t mean that it’s okay to ignore the fact that most aren’t.)”

      Whoa there! How many is “most”, and what are you basing that on? Did you do a survey or are you just assuming? And even if most trans people did agree with your statement, why does having a majority make your experiences more valid and important than anyone else’s?

      I am a trans man and I love my vagina. I don’t think I need to qualify that with a disclaimer that my feelings are somehow weird or (gasp!) not in line with “most” trans people. Trans people are a diverse bunch, and I think it’s quite sad when we turn on each other, policing each other’s identities and proclaiming what is the right and wrong way to be trans. You don’t need to frown on depictions of trans people who aren’t exactly like yourself. There’s room for all of us.

      Personally I thought the comic was fabulous and I was pleased to see some representation of guys like me. I saw nothing chaser-like about it and I think that accusation is uncalled for.

  74. Dan Guillou says:

    Wise and funny!
    I wish you would make more of these, and fewer ads for your favorite bars.
    (You do show some nice skills in the bar adds. Composition, clarity, stuff like that. Neat. It’s just that, living in Stockholm, I don’t really have any use for them.)
    All the best

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  77. Chris says:

    Dan, those aren’t ads — Bill publishes a weekly bar review comic in the Brooklyn Paper. He does love his beverages, but he’d have to be one hell of a lush to have THAT many favorite bars!

  78. Carerra says:

    This is just brilliant and amazing. I don’t know the last time I appreciated something this much.

  79. Kraai says:

    I’m curious; how do you feel about the terms homoromantic versus homosexual, and how they relate to just “gay”? Everything I’ve read before sort of points toward “I only date men. It’s just that some of the men I date have vaginas” would mean that you’re homoromantic, but not entirely homosexual? Do you think of gay as being necessarily one, the other, or both?

    Apologies if I’m coming off as Orientation Police myself, but i’m pretty damn close to asexual; attraction confuses me. I’m really not a big fan of labels, but I know they help some people and they’re more comfortable using them, so I try to figure it out;;;

    • admin says:

      I think that if sex is happening between two men, regardless of their genitals, it’s homosexual.
      In most cases, I’d say that “gay” includes both “homoromantic” and “homosexual” – although those terms may be useful for someone who needs to define their terms more closely. I’m not that person.

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